Jaycee:
When web production is compartmentalized into specialist professions, an imbalance often results.

mcguffin:
If you have several specialists collaborating on the project, you either need someone to keep an eye on the overall picture, or need a team that understands that they need to work together to produce the website.

The graphic designer, code developer and content writer have to understand a little bit about each other's jobs and be willing to listen and compromise. If someone in the web-team is a primadonna, the project will become lopsided rather quickly.
Even within me-myself-and-I this teamwork can be hard to achieve!

One project I work with has a development team of 6, and they coordinate the work of maybe 60 content producers at present. The biggest problems (and bottlenecks) we suffer seem to come from graphics design.

We can't put up a page without a template, and the design people often turn a deaf ear to the need for small file sizes. Their work is visually beautiful, but there's no way to execute it unless we go north of 100kb. I say it's like using oil paint on water color paper.

I've found that content writers are much more adaptable - just explain why a 400 word text block is not a good idea and they have little trouble with edits.

Are there ways that content providers are a pain in the butt to graphic designers? Coders problematic for copy writers?

(edited by: tedster at 5:17 pm (utc) on May 8, 2002)
With any implemtation that involves multiple components you must have complete unbroken communication. It involves great planning and lots of meetings. This requries that you have someone overseeing the project as well as overseers of each team if it is that large.

You must layout each step and how they relate so each team can set goals and deadlines. Each week you must have all the teams meet together to review their goals and give status on what was completed and what hasn't been, with a projected date of completion.

I recently posted a thread regarding working on teams and got your feedback. I work alone in regards to web design, but in my day job I was on a project implementing a multimillion dollar software suite. The project involved 3 companied working together with project members working on 5 different teams (each team had reps from each company). Testing, mock go-lives, and go-lives were all perfectly synchronized with all teams. Many team members flew in weekly, some were international from Australia. After viewing real team work on this 1.5 yr long project and how smooth it can work, I can't see any other way for any project, including large web projects.
Information Architecture and the World Wide Web by O'Reilly explains the dynamics of a web team very well. When you have designers, programmers, marketers, usability experts, and CEOs all having input on a project, you have a ton of different shades of perspective that can easily skew the project one way or another. In the end, the user suffers at the cost of corporate politics unless someone can keep a solid vision for the site throughout the project.
Are there ways that content providers are a pain in the butt to graphic designers?

As a content author, I can gleefully describe the one of the comments I've received back from our graphics designer.

Before designing a new template, she wants at least a mock-up of some text that will be relevant to what she's designing around. I've learned that vague handwaving about content, such as You know, about 200 words, some bullets, a picture or too, and a couple of internal links is just not enough. It's too abstract. :)
Ah, the cluster! Its taken me two years to mold my main designer into thinking SEO and usability when he develops Look and Feels for my clients. I play the role of project director and coding specialist, he does the graphics. I also have a third team member who handles programming, he has not been so easy to convert!

The goal would be to keep the number of team members to a minimum. The more people involved, the less streamlined the process becomes. The worst part is when there is a team from the clients end who is reviewing and making changes and they can't make up their mind.

I have a CD packed with Look and Feels that ended up in the archives because someone from the clients team didn't like it and they had the overall decision. Mind you, that 9 out of 10 others really liked it, but the decision maker is the bottom line!

Teamwork is essential in developing a successful web presence. Without it, nothing gets done. If it does, there is usually something not right about the end result because of the various attitudes involved in the process.

My feeling is that the SEO should probably be one of the project directors. The optimization of the site effects all of the team members right down to the person developing graphics for the site. If the client involves an SEO from the conceptual development of the site, then they have made a very smart move. If not, then rework is inevitable!

As an SEO working with a small team of people, I am adamant about being project director.

Graphics - You need to make sure those images are named properly, optimized to the nth degree and well planned.

Programmers - You need to make sure those URL's are spider friendly.

Coders - Its your responsibility to make sure the code is optimized to the nth degree. External files where applicable, CSS, minimal use of tables and cells along with proper directory and html structure.

Project Directors - You need to understand the team members responsibilities and make sure that all of you are working towards a common goal. In this instance, a site that loads quickly, is visually appealing and easy to navigate, ranks highly in the search engines and directories.

Oh, and lets not forget, it probably needs to generate revenue!
pageone,

For small projects, the project director probably needs to take ownership of the SEO issue. They should be deeply involved in creating the SEO plan as well as explaining to each member of the team how SEO works (and their role in it).

Additionally, I'd put ownership of user-interface issues with the project manager. They neeed to look at the pieces as they come together and ask, very critically, does this work and does it flow?

To add to your list, content developers need to understand the whacky world of SEO copy-writing. I've done a lot of professional writing, and it took me about a month to recondition my head to writing comfortably with keywords in certain positions and percentages. I think it's easier to write a good press release than well-optimized
web-copy.
I have been a graphic designer for about 10 years. I have heard all of this before. The graphics people are so hard to get along with.

From my stand point programmers were always a nightmare for me. Content specialist and everyone else wanted a nice looking site, no problem. Programmers wanted things to be easy for them. I ended up learning how to code pages and would do all client side work. It made me learn how to plug in to the backend.

Now I pretty much have the same view of designers. The main problem designers have is they don't understand technical things. We just are not made that way. We have been taught that there are no strict rules. It took me learning programming languages to understand that there are rules.

The bottom line on all those graphics guys who are a pain to work with need to learn what everyone else is doing.
I am currently working on a real estate site. It requires gathering and updating mixed informations from 24 different house builders, 15 housing projects promoters and about 60 agents. Things can get mixed up quite fast without a good supervision tool.

The production team consists of

1 project manager
1 assistant project manager
1 still photographer
1 panoramic photographer
2 content writers
1 web graphic artist
1 HTML coder
1 PR guy/sales man
1 marketing guy (me)

I provided web site conception and a custom FileMaker management solution that takes care of almost everything. To some degree, every one in the team feels limited by overall specifications. Every one need to compromise for the other members of the team. They are forced to deliver acceptable formats before they can proceed to the next step.

Here is one example: each contact requires a fax number OR some email adress to be admissible. The program will go <beep!> and will not let you create a contact record if both of theses fields are empty.

Here is another: each house builder is required to give a general description of the house between 30 and 40 words. If it's one word longer or shorter than this <beep!> the content writer will have to edit it before he can fill another field.

They feel frustrated that a stupid and ugly computer program they never used before is telling them what to do. On the first days it was a real <beep!> symphony at the office! ;) I hope they will soon get used to it.

It took 2 months of planning and developpement before a single line of text was ever written for the site. I think it was worth it. Jumping too fast in such a project would have caused such a mess. It would have been just like most web sites.
How about the CEO? I agree that SEO input must be high up the tree, but the SEO must take his or her cue from the overall function the site is required to perform. In a very big operation, this might not involve the CEO, but it still might.

A few years ago I read about a move towards having a CIO (Chief Information Officer). I think the little dip in the market may have trashed that diection.

But somewhere along the line the C-level must direct the website. And, somehow or other, they must get an education too, or else they sabotage their own best interests.
>>>>A few years ago I read about a move towards having a CIO (Chief Information Officer).

I was speaking with someone the other day from a Fortune 500 company who was telling me to get in touch with their CIO, who pretty much oversees and has their hands in it all, so I guess the idea didn't get totally scrapped.
My software company( that I work for) has a cio who oversees all software development for the ceo. It is a senior vp position. The company is also a part of the fortune 500.
Following up with the CIO, I work for a Fortune 500 and we also have SR VP that is CIO. He has been axing jobs left and right. <crossing fingers>I have dodged his hacks do far </crossing fingers>
I'm a one-man-shop who tries to do everything. This gets around the communication problems, and I do only small sites.

My background is unusual, with a degree in fine art, but lots of technical, engineering consulting and some programming experience as well. And I love all of it.

Still I can tell you that this is not THE answer either (besides being unworkable for large projects). I doubt anyone can be really top notch at graphics and coding and content creation and networking and project management and SEO and also running a business. So some aspects probably suffer.

As far as large teams and schedule slippage goes, I always remember the old engineering manager's adage: If an engineering project is slipping and you have to speed things up, remove a couple of engineers from the project.
Hello!
Well, I don't run a fortune 500 company's website, but I do own a small website which is completely operated by volunteers. My team consist of department heads that takes care of their own section and we communicate on ICQ or via our TeamForum to keep up with what's happening. In my site, the Content people is the core of the organization, they are the ones that makes our visitor wants to come back for more knowledge. So when I talk to my team of department heads, I ask them How can you makes it easier for your colleges who don't know jack about html to contribute to the site? My view is that the easier you make it for them to do what they do best, the more likely they'll do it under a relaxed and positive postion. But then again, my team are volunteers, so they begin working on what they feel is what they like to do anyways :) At the end, it;s the performance of the content dudes that counts the most.
How do you coordinate volunteer content people who take care of their own section? Do they just decide what belongs, or do they have guidelines set by a higher authority?

I have a similar situation with one client (mostly volunteer staff), and the turf wars can get pretty rugged. We find content created for one section that undermines an important marketing decision for the whole site - so we veto it and get ruffled feathers, sometimes long term grudges, etc - all of which hurts the necessary teamwork even further.
Yep, you got it! They get to decide what belongs and what doesn't. However when they come across a major decision, they are adviced to bring the matter into the team forum where we discuss alternatives and the impact of the decision.

Tactic #1: Sometimes you have to let go of your own authority and trust that volunteer to let him do a good job. As part of a team developer, each of them has the right to advice on other's decision, especially the team leader which must respect each of his/her team mates. Respect means no matter what your volunteers do, they hold the final say at the end wheater to do it or not, you can only lobby them with good reasons but must never take matters out of their hands.

Tactic #2: Refering to the Turf concern, it is possible that the lack of communication may have caused this. I encourage my team to never use E-mail (because it is private) and instead use the team forum where everyone knows what everyone is doing.

Tactic #3: The team forum also provides a way of cultivication amoung the team. This means that every volunteer knows every volunteer by name and in turn, knows each other's daily live etc. When this kind of relationship forms within your team, it is less likely that a conflict arise that will heat up. Alienation is the #1 enemy within any team effort. One of our forum moderators and volunteer recruitment officer crossed each other one day accidentally, and because of the established relationship between the team, the two guys (in their 30's) were shaking hands digitally at the end :)

anyways, hope this helped!

P.S. Guidlines is good, but too much will damage creativity. That's why children are creative, they know no rules! LOL
One, separate programmers from HTML guys, different task. Engineering software systems is not the same as building tables.

That being said, get the graphic designers out of the design side.

You should have a Usability expert design the interface. If you don't have a usability expert, become one. It's not that hard, work out some interface elements and draw them out.

This is NOT art, this is functional. I turned my mockups over the the graphics artist, and he and his assistant turned my ugly sketches and basic graphics into a beautiful site. When it launches, it's going to be awesome. But I CHOSE where each widget went for SEO and UI reasons, not artistic ones.

You should be able to design your templates in the same manner. You have figured out what the pages should look like, let the designer do the graphics.

Have the developers build whatever code they need to display the site. We do object oriented PHP with an object oriented style database implementation, but do whatever floats your boat. You can do straight Perl for all I care. XML XSLT works if you don't want a to have a relational database, XML XSLT gives you the power of the database, you just have to manually do the content. You still get easily changed template sites though.

Regarding the URLs, do it last. We use mod_rewrite to send everything to a parsing script. The parsing script analyzes the URL and figures what variables to set and what scripts to call.

Seriously though, get a process.

1. Architect the site
2. Design the user's experience
3. Beautify the user's experience (makes the clients happy too)
4. Make it easy for the robots to figure out

Alex
My opinion - designers are not monsters :) Programmers are not monsters too :) Same with the copywriter.

They are all nice people... and hard to work with! BUT THAT IS PROJECT MANAGER's problem!!
He is the one to connect them all!! To make them work together..

And in my case, that also means SEO!
I've come to the conclusion that there is a heirarchy of importance to web development that matters a lot, and most development teams don't get it right. Here's my view:

1. Business purpose for the site; targeting
2. Information Architecture
3. Copy
4. Code
5. Graphic design

Because layout and graphic design need to be determined before the other elements can be laid in, designers often end up with too much clout. Trust me, the exact color tone does NOT matter and that beautiful gradient may not affect ROI at all.

Because development teams are often in a rush, the targeting and IA steps often get short changed. This is a recipe for delay during development and disaster after the launch.

If the business purpose and IA are clear and precise, then the whole team has a much easier time and the final product really delivers.

Copy matters the most, but almost no one gets it. Sure, if you have lousy product photos, you're better off with none - but the copy is the most important part of the communitcation. Copy is why your visitors come - and why they convert.
>Trust me, the exact color tone does NOT matter and that beautiful gradient may not affect ROI at all.
- Sorry, tedster, I will not. :) Studying Phychology makes me think the other way.. I agree with the list of importance.. BUT!! I will insert Usability above Code/Copy/Design.. I would make Usability a folder with these 3 items in that! USABILITY IS ABOVE ALL and no copy can save the site..

The problem with the copywriters.. Most of them are skilled but.. came from Print world.. They are cool and professional..BUT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT search engines. They believe people love to read long copy and so on..

Problems with designers - they want that to look beatuful.. And always forget that is their own taste which tells them what is beautiful and what is not. Others might not think so ( and often they do)

Programmers.. Then know nothing about Usability at all :) Teach teach teach..

I would say,
Copy - 35%
Code - 35%
Design - 30%
Code Copy Design=100% = usability = profits and clients.

P.S. Design matters.. Branding, respect - design can help a lot.
Why people buy?? Even they do not know.. But the developers MUST know. Good designer = good pchycologist!
I agree with you about usability - it's an umbrella category! And a good bit of the usability input must come from testing, and not from team opinions!

That gives a different line-up

1. Targeting/Business Purpose
2. Information Architecture
3. Usability
-----a. copy
-----b. code
-----c. graphic design

As much as I'm a hound for valid, clean, economical code, I still feel copy is more important (and extremely underrated). I know I'm in the minority on this view, but I came to it through aggrivating experience.

Rough code still makes it into the search engines. Browsers still forgive it, in many cases. But there's no saving stupid copy - and that includes print-style copy on a web page.

Bare bones design with simplistic layouts can do very well - are Amazon's pages really all that gorgeous? But copy is the essence of a commercial site.

For now I guess I'll just have to keep that as my own secret weapon. I have recently restuctured one team in exactly this fashion, and the results are looking good. The general workflow we're following is this:

1. After the targeting and IA are set, the copy is created first
2. Then the designer reads the copy and creates the look
3. The coder puts the pages together, and often goes back to the designer with new requirements (NOT just suggestions)
4. And then we go back to the copy writer and edit for final tweaks

The challenge is that clients want to see a look early on. It can take some selling to convince them it's important to wait for their hit!

<added>The thing about searching for the perfect colors is that the web is not print - and even in print, the press can throw you many a curve ball. I recently dealt with a design that looked great on 24-bit CRT monitors. But on a 16 bit LCD screen, or any Macintosh, it was exceedingly ordinary, even dull!

Still, we're going ahead with it - because it just doesn't matter that much, IMO.</added>
<<But there's no saving stupid copy - and that includes print-style copy on a web page.>>

Tedster - have you been looking at my sites again?!

Seriously, switching from writing for print to writing for the web is always a difficult transition for me. I would welcome any secrets for good web writing!
Mardi_Gras, make your copy smaller :) I gave been fighting with the copywriter for some months just about the length.. He is addicted to A4 space:) MAKE SMALLER!

And do not forget about Search Engines...

tedster, I agree about experience.. That what gives us Unique Selling Point.. You have found your.. I still have been looking and assume that in some time might reach your opinion about copy.. But still think even colors are important. Why? I studied a lot in this field :) ( althoug I am not a professional designer..)
Believe me, that matters!! :)

Thanks for this brainstorm session!!

Makes brains work!!! :) LOL
Writing copy for the web - a grand topic, and worthy of its own thread. So I started one.

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum44/64.htm

Featured Links:

Today, I decided to bite the bullet and to give Eudora a really good try... and after a wasted day I've concluded that, whatever else the program's merits, that address book really is a toy. I mean, people have first and last names, and when I have several hundred addresses I don't want to be fooling around with whether I called somebody Bill or William, or whether I'm Robert or Bob.

Full names in Eudora are sorted by first name, and when you view by last name, you don't get first names. This amazes me.

I thought of creating nicknames with last names first, but the program defaults to nicknames in the email headers, and you really don't want to send notes addressed that way. Even the auto-complete feature seems to work only with first names... or at least with the beginning of the nicknames.

I also feel the program has a very non-intuitive interface, though I could undoubtedly get used to it (Compare the address-book name sorting with Outlook Express, for example). Don't get me started on the documentation.

The alternative, for my system, would probably be to update Outlook 97 in my Office 97 suite with an old copy of OL98 that I have on disk, and then download all the service releases and security patches... as well as third-party add-on email monitors... and pray.

I'm trying to replace my contact manager too... probably with Act!... which interfaces only with OL or Eudora, so it's one or the other. I also need to support multiple email accounts... would love to use MailWasher or Pop3 ScanMailBox

What I'm wondering is whether I'm missing something about how to use Eudora... whether I'll get used to it, etc. Very subjective questions, I know. Has anybody out there used both and can give comparisons about the two? And can Outlook, with all the patches, be made secure?
Have a look at Pegasus www.pmail.com it does most of what you've described, but may still be not smart enough for you in the address book area.

Outlook is great in theory, but a bit of a monster if you really want to use the contacts, schedules etc etc.
And there's no doubt that huge numbers of e-mail viruses exploit the popularity of Outlook.

Maybe look at a dedicated contact management package which interfaces to your e-mail.
Tracker & Goldmine spring to mind as well as Act!
Plus, it seems that their data files are huge. It's been a couple of months since I tried it, so my mind may be influenced by exageration, but my imported .pst seemed to be 5-10x bigger in Eudora. Plus, I agree that it doesn't seem to be as intuitive.

I'm with you in searching for a better email client. I need the ease of use of Outlook, greater security (although I personally haven't had a problem yet, could be that I use AV and ZoneAlarm), and better filtering.
I'll second the Pegasus recommendation.

Being able to preview the headers and delete at the server is reason enough to use it, but the multiple account set-up is worth the download too. The address book is much better in the latest version (4).

Try it. Doesn't hurt the pocketbook as it's still free.
Eudora has issues and the address book is definitely one of them (it took me forever to figure out how to export names from the address book), but you exaggerate a bit. You can sort names by any field you choose
- first name
- last name
- nickname

Just select the one you want in the drop-down list above the names (View by).

Auto-complete works from both your address book and messages in your inbox. It does completion for the latter based on e-mail address and the former based on full name and, yeah, I always forget that my boss is in there under Robert. Stupid.

Tom
Outlook 98 and above rely on the internet Explorer browser engine. Make sure you security patches are up to date even if it is not your main browser. Outlook 97 saves your HTML e-mail as attachments so there is no chance of malicious VBScript running from the preview screen. Slipstick is a resource you should be aware if you plan to use Outlook.

Also, if you deal with a lot of e-mail, I suggest looking into Caelo's Nelson Email Organizer. It has saved me hundreds of hours tracking correspondence and quick searching on specific words.
I've avoided using Address Books in any email program, since any virus that comes along generally targets the address book first. If I really want to keep track of someone's contact info, it goes in my PDA address book.
I encrypt the address book. Takes 15 seconds longer to use my email clients, and I use Outlook and Pegasus, but encrypting the addresses gives me some piece of mind.

I also use PGP to sign email. People can check to make sure that any email they get from me is really from me.

The last thing I want is my entire client list to receive a nice infected email because I didn't take the time to secure my address book.

I haven't seen a virus yet that can send an email to :
qANQR1DBw04DDjpG2j5S4r0QD/4sbcj A6lgLKocsu nKGW6giCLJAfZJwnm1Fpg
VEjrgFTIz6ZvgRdLCHyUefGX5CKeNDAz2eFZwJU056nogEFHLZHrp /LowvXPMia
lZR6BDRe6uO RfOETdFmG0Kc6ECWEYdJz0tS528QlKuC1c36k2qBqOQurstLb1Zt
BE7R6CvcP8XIwIqxlnmCtcJ1BiIWniw5nw7IpfSsFER9h3NH39fG2yCnIGVWvLHI
>view by

Eudora Lite 3.0.6 only has view by nickname or address as far as I know. And, yes, the address book is really weak on features when it comes to anything more than the most basic contact management. However, one of the things I like about Eudora (pre-html versions) is that the address book and mailbox content are kept in .txt files. The address book is nndbase.txt. Over the years, I've found this simple file structure to be very easy to slice & dice when integrating with other apps -particularly in the handling of relatively large volumes of incoming forms.

I use Ultraedit to do a local search, as the Eudora search is ALSO very weak. (BTW, while we're at it, the filter rules file is filters.pce -makes editing easier.)
>I encrypt the address book

I've used Pegasus' built in message encryptor, but the idea of encrypting the address book is novel to me.

digitalghost, how did you go about setting it up?
Hello toadhall,

With Outlook I just encrypt the wab file using PGP and delete the original. Pegasus use the PM! and PMR extensions for the address book, if you haven't named the address books they look like ADBK1234.PMR. If you name them they'll show up in your identity directory as yourname.pmr I encrypt them and delete the original, decrypt for use then encrypt them again when I am finished.

As another option, you can set up PGP to automatically wipe the original and you can encrypt the entire directory. I tend to do that with Pegasus while just manually encrypting the wab file for Outlook. I tend to use Outlook much more often than Pegasus.

I encrypt ALL sensitive data on my PC, Quickbooks, client lists, .exe files I don't want accessed, a registry editor is a good .exe to encrypt if you have kids around. :)

If you have to send files to someone, scanning them with your av proggie and encrypting the files with their public key offers some reassurance to the recipient. Being able to verify that the email did indeed come from the sender is always a plus, especially if there are attachments.

DG
I use Eudora, after watching a friend of mine who deals with thousands of people and hundreds of emails per day (very large volunteer org). Agree that it has some weaknesses, but beats having to check for patches every week.
Thanks dg, I'll have to add PGP to the project list.

This would be an excellent option on an email client - address book encryption; decryption by password.
In the mean time I'll continue to use my bell labs audio file encryption method:

http://www.bell-labs.com/project/tts/piglatin.html

All I have to do is put my telephone up to the speakers and Voila! nobody knows what I'm talking about except specially trained individuals of a certain cultural bent.
It's intriguing that Pegasus lets you preview headers on the server. That's one of the features that has kept me with Compuserve all this time. I'm hoping that MailWasher or Pop3 ScanMailBox will provide the same functionality with other email clients.

>>Try it {Pegasus}. Doesn't hurt the pocketbook as it's still free.<<

I don't think that Pegasus will work with Act, and that would be enough to rule it out. As for the cost of a program, one of the real costs of software is the time you put into checking it out, so the free version of Eudora has already been incredibly expensive for me.

Yes, there are a bunch of features about Eudora that I like... including the .txt file format and the optional independence from Internet Explorer... but the entire interface is dreadful, not just the address book.

>>but you exaggerate a bit. You can sort names by any field you choose - first name - last name - nickname<<

- First name sort shows first names only... not first and last name as I'd expect, so I might be looking at a lot of Toms, or maybe Thomases, without having the faintest idea who they were. It truly amazes me that a software manufacturer wouldn't have the forethought to figure this out.

- Ditto for last name... you just see last names only. How would I keep up with all those Joneses?

- Full name and nickname displays both sort by first name. Imagine your local phone directory arranged this way.

I haven't really looked at Outlook 98, and yes, the point about the patches is well taken. Slipstick.com (thanks for the reminder about this site) lists over 20 patches for Outlook 98, which is really intimidating. The Microsoft patch situation has always been ridiculous, but I think I may have no choice if I want to use email to stay in touch with lots of people.

Slipstick says about the Outlook E-Mail Security Update, though, which I thought was going to be the Great Protector:
Extensive update to lock down many parts of Outlook that make it possible for a virus to use Outlook to propagate. Install with great caution, since it will change the behavior of some Outlook features and most add-ins.

What are the problems with this Security Update, and what are the alternatives? I remember hearing that ZoneAlarm would do a lot of what the Update would do.

Also, are there any workarounds for the HTML email situation with Outlook? I already have Active-X off in most situations.
PS to above...

sun818 - Your link to Caelos's Nelson Email Organizer seems to be broken, but looks so good that I'm repeating the link here.

mole - You mention Tracker as a contact manager. I'm still using the DOS version of that program because I've never found anything else that's even close. Discussed it with Woz in the thread on maintaining professional contacts, that they seem to have gone out of business. Do you know something that we don't? Is there a Y2K compliant version of the program?
What are the problems with this Security Update
The biggest problem is that some e-mail attachments cannot be accessed but others can make it through. There are also Known Interoperability Issues with the Outlook E-mail Security Update (Q264128) However the SlipStick site does have a download somewhere that will eliminate some of these problems for later versions of Outlook. Also, are there any workarounds for the HTML email situation with Outlook? I've heard that there is a way to completely turn off HTML e-mail in Outlook 2002...but I don't have that version and couldn't say whether it works.
Bill - Thanks for the link. I had a discussion on the phone today about the same subject... that the security update may have some consequences I don't like. Somewhere I remember reading that ZoneAlarm Pro provides the same protection as the Security Update, but that it's controllable. Can anyone confirm or comment?

I'll be using Outlook 98. Should I anticipate any problems, incidentally, installing Outlook 98 (which I'm not sure whether it's Y2K compliant) over Outlook 97 (which was made Y2K compliant a while back)?

PS to above re ZoneAlarm Pro... Discussion about ZoneAlarm on Foo thread:

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum9/2332.htm

suggests it may be more problems than it's worth. Any other alternatives to OL Security Update?
You do realize that OL98 is no longer officially supported by Microsoft...don't you? ;)
Any other alternatives to OL Security Update? The recommendation that I have heard is to apply all the security patches available except the E-mail Security Patch. Then make sure you have all the latest patches for IE. Make sure that you do not use Word as your e-mail editor. After that, as long as you set your security zones in Outlook and IE to deny automatic scripts, ActiveX and others, you'll be about as safe as you can be with Outlook.

If you do all that, and then use MailWasher to check your mail first, you'll be a lot safer.
I installed the Outlook Security update and it's simply wonderful. No issues at all. It does mean, though, that executable attachments cannot be opened directly. The update completely removes the worry about the most common email attachment trojans and viruses. I recommend it to everyone, and no one that I know of has had an issue with it. However, do read the docs completely as there are restrictions that are introduced by the patch.

Richard Lowe
>> I don't think that Pegasus will work with Act, and that would be enough to rule it out.

Yeah, I switched from Eudora to The Bat a few months ago (I abandoned Pegasus for Eudora about a year before), when Eudora's slow handling of large files finally got to me. The Bat is much better at that and at most other things, so I recommend it highly... but the one thing I miss is being able to integrate my email client with Act.
I've been using Mozilla's email client for a couple weeks and have no big complaints about it. I haven't seen anyone mention it...
>>My kingdom for a safe, full featured, usable email client.<<

Or a really fast horse. ;) This tagline from the front page states it well. I want something that's full featured, usable, and safe.

>>You do realize that OL98 is no longer officially supported by Microsoft...don't you?<<

As much as Microsoft ever supported anything.... The patches are still on the Microsoft site, and I'm not sure I ever would have gotten any other help from them anyway. I have no choice, because I can't afford to update to Office 2000.

A big concern I have about installing OL98 at this date is whether the installation will overwrite newer files that should be kept and create Y2K problems. I'm getting differing feedback about this too... mostly who knows?... but some comment also that this may be operating system dependent. The readme file on my 'Running MS Outlook 98' disk also threatens to install IE4... so I need to prevent that from happening too. Anyone install OL98 after a Y2K upgrade with a later version of IE than 4.0?
PS to the above...

I can't tell from the KB articles whether Act would have trouble accessing Outlook with the Security Update installed.

Also, it seems to me that I've read somewhere (and my head is swimming trying to sort this stuff out) that email containing urls is blocked or flagged with the security update installed.

Anyone have experience with these issues one way or the other?
Anyone install OL98 after a Y2K upgrade with a later version of IE than 4.0? I believe IE 4 is the minimum requirement for your browser...so anything up to IE 6x should work fine. whether Act would have trouble accessing Outlook with the Security Update installed I don't have experience with this, but I recall reading that if you have the E-mail Security Patch installed then any access to your Contacts list would result in a dialog box popping up...I could see how this could quickly become annoying if something was doing a mail merge or similar...but if you have Act as your Contacts manager, then it seems like the only drawback of the patch would be the limitation on incoming attachments.
>>I believe IE 4 is the minimum requirement for your browser...<<

To rephrase my question more clearly, would the auto-install process try to install components of IE4 over a later version of IE, and, if so, how can I prevent this?

>>any access to your Contacts list would result in a dialog box popping up...<<
>>it seems like the only drawback of the patch would be the limitation on incoming attachments<<

If the limitation on incoming attachments were all the Security Update did, I'd be happy, at least as far as Act goes. But does Act try to access the OL Contacts list when used as a front end for Outlook? Even sending messages one by one, that could get really clumsy.

How would the patch affect the interoperability of OL and the Nelson Email Organizer?

Also, on incoming attachments, what abt email containing urls?
Just thought I'd jump in with a suggestion: have you ever considered RitLabs' The Bat? It's a great email client that's really well coded so it's not bloated and slow like Outlook. It has really great features - the message filtering is superb, and you can import your address book from Outlook. It handles multiple email accounts elegantly - you can even configure it to run as a mail server - and has a properly encrypted secure version. It's cheap too.

I've been using it for about a year and have never had any major complaints. It's only problem as far as I can see is that it's aimed at more techie types who like to tweak their software. Oh yeah, and mails in HTML format don't render very well, but I'm a plaintext person myself.

My colleague imported all of his mail in from Outlook and has been using it with Act 2000 with no problems as far as I can see, although I believe you can't send mailmerges from Act.

Does this sound any good? I'll stickymail you the URL if you like.
TheBat! is it - best one out there imho. I've used it for a very long time now, never a problem.

It's true about some rendering issues with the HTML mail, but who reads that anyway?

Give it a go a ritlabs.com - it really is a good program. You can use it or you can really use it - options galore...
>> Just thought I'd jump in with a suggestion: have you ever considered RitLabs' The Bat?

I know no one reads the whole of long threads, but I already (sort of) recommended The Bat, several messages back.

But I don't see how your colleague would go about using it from within Act 2000. The only email app options I see are Outlook, cc:Mail, and Eudora Pro.
I had The Bat bookmarked, so I had looked at it before. It seems to have some nice features, but details about the features are sketchy at best.

All the website says about the address book is that I can organize my addresses by groups and that I can even add my favorite photos. If it's a techie program, it sounds like it's a techie program for the non-techie.

Can I sort, say, the recipients' list by first or last name? Looking at the screenshot, it doesn't look like I could. Will it interface with Act? In what file format does it store email messages? At superficial first glance, it looks a bit like Eudora.

Featured Links:

Overture is also on Lycos!
I'm not seeing Overture on fast...

<added>Maybe I should turn off the offensive content filter!</added> :)
I'm seeing Overture in the top 3 results as SPONSORED SEARCH LISTINGS.
I'm not seeing GOverture.

Nice redesign thou.
I am seeing Overture....I'll get a screen shot if you would like me to.
You are right!

From Italy I should get to Fast using Anonymizer to view the sponsored listings!
What search are you using???

_{Maybe I should turn off the offensive content filter!}

Very Good! ;)
I'm using the same criteria but I still don't see Overture like the screenshot. What country are you in?
USA
I'm in the US and they are showing for every search I've tried.
I'm in the UK. It looks like they are only showing it on US IP Addresses for the US version of GOverture. They will probably show the UK GOverture results for UK IP Addresses shortly.
Mate, I did the same search, and the sponsored listing don't appear, and that's from Prague, CZ. I reckon that fast doesn't want to offend too many people, so decided to aim the listings at the countries from where they came.
Bad News!

Let's hope Lycos doesn't follow suit.
Or even that it's temporary
Click on : SPONSORED SEARCH LISTINGS. MORE

Is that the complete Overture catalog?

No Overture from here. However, I do see two of the same doubleclick ads on results pages.
It's on Lycos, too!
Confirmed.

GOverture in full.
Yep, but they are trying to hide it from non-us customers on Alltheweb. Why is that? Will they use UK Overture for UK customers?
Interesting.

Lycos UK shows Espotting
Lycos US shows GOveture

_{is there a short hand for GOverture???
and I don't mean Overture as a short hand}
Backus,

That's what I suspected above.
Lycos has had PPC partners all the time.
Alltheweb had an occasional start here from Kanoodle before.
I realy think that the Overture listings on different search engines is a bad move from S.E.

1. The search become more difficult to overview what listings are placed where.

2. All search engines give the same results

3. Its a sign that the companies behind the S.E is not having a good time, financely.

4. The small or personal web site does not have the same options as the big companies.

zeus
>Fast Falling from grace
well not exactly.
This will have no consequences at all for any of FASTs outlets with the exception of Alltheweb. For all of FASTs partners have their own PPC/PFI schemes. It's FASTs strategy to remain in the background, not competing with their partners. It's kind of opposite to what Google is doing.

FAST is NOT A SEARCHENGINE!

Fast is a provider of search technology and, to a lesser degree, a provider of websearch results.

The Overture deal is exclusively with Alltheweb.

Alltheweb is nothing but FASTs showcase. It's aimed more to impress business executives than joe surfer.

This, however was true to this day.
Speculation is opened, if this strategy has just been changed.

Is this move just an attempt to reimburse the costs of maintainig this showcase?
Or does FAST finally come around to start a search destination, competing openly with Google?
Sorry Heini... I know how much you like FAST.. but it's a SELL OUT pure and simple.

Their showcase? Well great showcase now... showing off someone elses returns above their own!!! Yeh... let's all go and buy their technology... they're so keen to promote it they hide it in second spot! See the problem?

I think you have to face it - they seem determined to follow the path set by AV, HB and other once leading search providers.

No - I get no pleasure from this. A sort mixture of disappointment, anger and a hope that they do badly from here on in (sorry!).

A very sad day (as if it's not been bad enough for me!).
Napoleon
I do not like this move at all.
I just try to understand what's going on.

As to diminiuishing relevance etc of serps: 99% of Fast results appear on their partners sites, mainly the Lycos sites.
Fast will deliver exactly the same results as before to those partners, which, as I said before, all have their own deals with either Overture or Espotting.

The question just is: what the heck is going on here? Why does Alltheweb not only display some Overture listings, but the whole catalog?

I'm not an Overture expert: does any other Overture partner have this geature, showing the complete catalog?
Don't worry Napoleon!
Saint Elena island is still there...

If you were a search engine company what would you do?
It's so easy to gain something just adding three PPC results.

This is were the net is going and I do not see how we can change this move.

For several companies web marketing costs are still lower than classical marketing media.
still not seeing overture results in the UK.
I don't see what you are seeing.
When I pull our site using our keyword phrase I see the 3 Overture listings and then below I see web page listings that look that they are from Fast.

Where is the complete Oveture catalog? > Where is the complete Oveture catalog?

On the Top, before the three listings:

SPONSORED SEARCH LISTINGS MORE

Click on more: you will find all Overture listings for the searched terms (till 0,01 included).

Caine, see my above post:

Try to use

http://www.anonymizer.com/

On the left side (free anonymous websurfing) write the alltheweb.com address.

Now you can navigate like an US searcher..

Featured Links:

Then FAST adds a Narrow Your Search box, offering additional words associated with the search phrase. This function apparently draws from completely different sources than the Topics. Are users queries analyzed for the associations?

Both these features, the Topics and the associated common words are FASTs attempt at adding intelligent navigation to websearch. An attempt that several new engines are working on these days, with one of the best results so far provided by Exalead/AOL.France.
At Alltheweb those navigational features however have gone from the top of the page to the right hand sidebar - a decrease in prominence.

The advanced search, one of Allthewebs fortes, has added a very cool feature: you can filter searches not only for TLDs and domains, but for IPs and blocks of IPs too. A handy toy for the curious web professional...

What else? Check out the sophisticated Special features. Highlights are
- normal.title:text
Finds pages that contain the specified
word or phrase in the page title
normal.titlehead:text
Finds pages with the specified word or phrase
in the title or in its head content
- link.extension:text
link.extension:jpeg will find pages
that contain .jpeg images

Definately the best advanced search on the web, with lots of useful features for webmasters.

It's a pity that all those goodies Fast offers on this showcase rarely make it to their portal partners.
Lycos.com has implemented some of them, and with their recent change of course back to strengthening websearch we will eventually see more of it.

(edited by: heini at 11:18 pm (utc) on May 8, 2002)
excellant review

visually looks good.

I agree about the partners not taking advantage of the advanced search facilities that make FAST one of the most important tools in any serious optimizer / searcher box.

Interesting to know about the clarification between Fast's groupings and ODP cats.

In most cases, i think FAST's relevancy is better than Google's for ranking positions.
Very nice.
Well done to FAST. Their pages look pretty and the advanced options are excellent.
They have a better boolean syntax than Google.

Google uses ,-,,OR
AllTheWeb's ,-,,()

The brackets make a lot more sense than using OR because it's more consistent. Google should have either supported brackets or used AND and NOT instead of symbols. Instead they've muddled both types of syntax together. A clear win in clarity for AllTheWeb.

Featured Links:

Tim

For the most part, I do the same thing.

Lots of pros use templates. They already have the tables laid out, and they plug the graphics/text in the corresponding boxes.
I look for inspiration at coolhomepages.com
I start out thinking about the design for a couple of days. Once I think I have focus I get down and dirty in photoshop. I try to visualize the site before I start working. Not much changes from my head to computer.
I like to jot down ideas for colors and layout and fonts. I try several on paper first. Mainly I use 1/10 graph paper to do rough layouts. Then I use Paint Shop Pro for layouts and graphics to see how it looks on screen. Once I have my look I create my template.

I usually take 2-3 days of thinking ang jotting before I work on the PC. Once I have enough templates I plan to save time on design by re-using the good ones
I draw out the whole site/concept on paper with me bare naked hands. ;)
first I liase with everyone else involved and set the priorities of what the site should achieve

next I decide how users will need the content to be shaped and arranged...then I draw up a site map...and chop the content into page sized chunks

then I mark up the content conceptually using html 4, from here on html 4 strict, though up until recently I used transitional

now I have the basis of a working site that can't fall apart unless I do something badly wrong

at this point I'll work out how some of the page elements should work visually (and aurally etc)...some of this will be dictated by the intention of the site, some will be down to context...I also decide on an overall look

I then apply styles...first getting the overall look working both in a linked and in an imported stylesheet, the latter for Netscape 4 et al...next putting the page elements together, first in the linked stylesheet, then as far as possible in the imported one...finally I'll juggle the styles around until I'm confident that it holds together for all pages in most circumstances, and is always usable

now any scripting gets added, unless it was fundamental to the whole operation of the site, in which case it is part of the earlier process

finally I test and tweak in a range of browsers
Would these sites be designed for clients? or just for fun...and how many clients or sites do you work on at once?
I can never seem to work forwards or in the proper order!

I use Dreamweaver, but I never use the layout feature, nor do I ever lay out a whole page or site in Photoshop. It ended up just wasting me a lot of time on designs I never seemed to stick with.

I now go straight to the html/code view and go. Inevitably, usability and html limitation issues get caught faster that way.

I try to be me--the designer, for a spell, then my average user, then my boss, and back to me again while making design decisions.

I do pay for my method with some glitches and a little uneavenness, but it's mostly due to my lack of testing time, and given my understanding, non-profit audience, I like the trade-off and less 'static-feeling' results.
I am a small fry. Most I have worked on at once was 3 sites. Every site I do is fun, I really enjoy web design, and I get paid to do it!
>>I now go straight to the *code/design* view and go.
<<Would these sites be designed for clients? or just for fun...>>

Tim - welcome to Webmaster World. As to your question above, I don't think you will find many people on this board designing sites for fun :)

Although they may try to have fun while still making a living.

As to your question that started this thread, I start by working out what the site needs to do and mapping a flow plan on paper. I give that to my artist (along with any existing key graphic and text elements), and she works out some drafts in Photoshop, then after client approval it moves on to the code guy.

For me, web design is much tougher than brochure design. Brochures have a set starting and ending point, and a straight path through. Web sites are much more complex, and sometimes I have trouble making sense of some of the complexities until we get some working links in place. Maybe I just don't visualize well :)

This approach works fine for my little marketing/consulting practice, but I don't do the volume or size of site that many on this board undertake.
Obviously, it depends on your resources. If you can afford a snazzy artist and a pro coder, that's very different than if you have no budget and are expected to be the all-in-one gal/guy. I think there are a lot of us out there in the latter position. In which case, it's important to come up with a strategy that suits your working style and limitations.
I currently deal with over 300 clients. Many of them come back each year for redesigns and updates. I'd say I deal with 10-20 clients on a regular basis, updating their sites everyday.

I basically start the layout in photoshop, and the client approves the layout, then I program it with dreamweaver and if there is any database stuff i send it over to their department where they handle that side of it. I'm just trying to get a feel for what other designers are going through.

I've noticed not all web designers program what they've designed...talk about a nice commodity!
300 Yikes! how do you do it!
For in-house stuff, I do a lot of print screening from browser windows. I just am addicted to seeing the page actually work before offering up anything as an option. For re-designs, I love ripping to shreds existing working pages in Dreamweaver and saving different options of working pages. I guess my lack of ability to predict how nav design will feel in a new overall design, makes me have to work this way.
<<I've noticed not all web designers program what they've designed...talk about a nice commodity!>>

Coding and designing take such different skill sets and personality types - I think it is a really unique person who can do both well. I think as technology continues to change, and the demands on both the code and design side grow, doing both well will only become more difficult.
Mardi_Gras

I'd have to agree...I'm tired of having to design and code. If I only had to deal with designing and the coder had to code it the way I've designed it, it would be a better position to be in. Trying to learn the latest coding techniques (CSS, DHTML, XML) and keep up with them changing just takes away from design time.
> If I only had to deal with designing and the coder had to code it the way I've designed it, it would be a better position to be in.

Easier for the designer maybe, but not necessarily for the client. I think you bring great value by knowing HTML as well as design - and staying up on CSS, XHTML etc. means that you won't paint the coders into a corner.

I think a coder should never have to code it the way the designer designed it. It takes a lot of teamwork to create a top-notch final product.
Tedster - I just think the two skills are very different, and I prefer to have a designer and coder. I also expect the designer and coder to work in concert to make certain the end result is the best possible site for the client. My designer and coder are husband and wife, so they really work VERY closely together.

As far as designers knowing CSS, etc, I think it is crucial that the designer know what is possible - making it a reality, in my opinion (humble though it may be :)) is better left to a code guy or gal.
I prefer to do both design and code. But if I had to choose between them, for any particular job I would prefer to code. T0 take an idea and make it reality is where the action is at for me.

I believe if your design and code and database, etc are handled separately that each should be a master in their field and have novice to intermediate skills in the other fields. It helps in team planning and team work. It also provides opportuntity for cross training and creates the ability to have primary and secondary teams so if someone leaves the team you have a backup in the interim while looking for their replacement
I personally got into building websites from a 100% designer perspective... and now that I've learned a fair bit about HTML, CSS and other code stuff, I can't imagine letting my design ideas get turned over to a separate coder!

My knowledge of coding has influenced my design style in ways I never would have experienced had I been left alone with Photoshop and my sketchbook... my whole understanding of design in general has expanded in previously unimagined directions. At the same time, wanting to make a difficult design work has forced me to expand my coding skills in more different directions than I ever would have gone, if I was just handed a pre-designed site to code. I personally HIGHLY recommend to any designer to get your hands dirty with some code, if only to expand your design perspective.

I start out with pencil sketches of page layouts, and colorblocks in photoshop, and do some multi-page structural diagrams on paper... Then I hop into Photoshop and build my basic graphics elements, open up golive to try sticking it all together, go back to photoshop to tweak sizing, color, etc., and sometimes go back to the sketchpad if I get really stuck on a layout... and on around in circles until I have a site done. (I left out the bit about beating the pre-written perl scripts into some kind of shape that fits with my layouts... that's always fun!)

The whole process is a really exhilarating combination of art and puzzle solving, once I really get started on a site... especially once I got more into integrating cgi scripts and learning CSS.
I do a lot of sites for musicians. After an extensive interview trying to extract exactly what they are picturing, I start with the photos and artwork they give me and build from there. I try to match the mood of their music as well as what they *think* their image is.

Also, I learned XHTML and CSS from the start and code everything by hand. All of my sites are completely liquid.
antedote - bet you didn't do bowie's or jagger's.

If I did I wouldn't own up to it LOL.
> My knowledge of coding has influenced my design style in ways I never would have experienced had I been left alone with Photoshop and my sketchbook

That's an important statement. I hope that art schools start teaching HTML if they don't already. It's all part of knowing your media.

Would a painter complain because water color paper won't hold up under oil paints? Doesn't a charcoal artist know how to leverage the textures of different papers?

Just so with the web - knowing the medium makes you much clearer about limitations AND possibilities.

Mivox, I can think of a few people I'd like you to talk to!
I'm a lay it out on paper kind of guy. After I know what it's supposed to look like, I get to work on the graphics using Fireworks and Photoshop. Then, I create tables using Dreamweaver to facilitate my paper design followed by plugging in the new images and then adding the copy.
I like to work with raw data/content first..layout a bare bones structure..get a feel for how the database/cart/static pages are going to bulk, link and flow...and then I put a face on it.

I think they call it form follows function.
I create the site first. Then I worry about design.

I can dress the content up in a dress I want. But it helps to see what you are dressing before you go off making dresses.
Photoshop is the first thing - sometimes I have nothing in mind when I load that... BOOM, in some hours I have PRETTY NICE CONCEPT :)
Sometimes that comes from long thinking.

But that is when the site is simple - design content and that is all!

When that is a complex project, then approach is different - planning, design/layout, programming, design change... And content during this time!
I'm a coder with a reasonable design sense. I won't say I'm a designer (I know better) but I know good design when I see it and can dictate what I want to someone who can execute it. I can even bull my way through simple designs but I can't create top notch designs and hire someone to execute these.

Now that you know this. My approach depends upon the complexity the client is after. If we're talking about a complex site - I'll take it to paper first with colored pencils. If it's a relatively simple job, then I'll start right on screen either in Fireworks, Illustrator, Photoshop or DW.
I tend to go with the skills I have, I'm no artist but have a good sense of layout, useability and accessability so usually start with in this direction:

Good long chat with all involved.
Prototype design
site map
xhtml markup
css
Programming

Some of that is in the wrong order to how it /should/ be but the clients I deal with don't usually have a clue untill they see something on-screen so to get the ball rolling I do some prototyping and take it from there.

My designs tend toward simple, as my art skills are rather basic: It's the programming and css layouts that get me going :-)

Nick

Featured Links:

Turnaround time is about an hour for the directory.

I hope that euroseek drives some traffic this time around.

Interestingly, the directory results are not being served up in the search (yet). I'd guess, at the moment, they do not have enough data in the directory.
Yeah, it's unpopulated territory so far!

Downer is the directory listings do not show on regular serps.
Give it chance Heini!

I'm really please that Euroseek is up again. I really like it, and see it as the European directory of the future, if managed correctly!
Not bad. I had a two hour turnaround on my submission.
The directory is searchable. I had a 25 minute turnaround on my submission!
Looks like we overloaded them - Euroseek is down now.
up and running from here- (Slovenia).
Heh, it seems that they've just ripped the structure from ODP. That's not a nice thing to do, is it.
fine when i checked, its directory has a serious lack of industrial cats, like none.
My submissions got prompt attention, but 3 of 4 URLs submitted were rejected. I guess it was nice of them to send a prompt rejection email.

I can't imagine why my submissions were rejected however, as they are excellent resources in their categories. Maybe I'll try again, after their editors start learning about the crappy quality of most other submissions.
if you have a new site, and submissions are getting such close attention, you may as well try and push for getting a higher level category, you have nothing to lose, they NEED submissions! :)

I got mines in within 45 mins, cool stuff....wish them all the best
Euroseek has potential if they play their cards right.

One site down here in Argentina, Ubbi.com, has skyrocketed in terms of popularity and user satisfaction. They are Google-powered both in web-crawled and category based site. They also have their own directy for Argentina-based sites that accepts submissions. I'll provide some better info in another thread later on so as not to turn this one off topic.

If Euroseek follows their style with country-specific directories in addition to Google-powered search results for each European country, this search engine will be a heavy player.
I submitted a site to the directory.

They didn't change a word in title and description and the site was accepted in two hours.

I think that it is an automated system.
>>>I think that it is an automated system.

I wondered about that too. When I submit two only the first one gets accepted.

>stevenha: My submissions got prompt attention, but 3 of 4 URLs submitted were rejected.

You think they are allowing one URL per IP per given time period?
Hi everyone,

Yes we are manually checking all submissions. The biggest problem we are seeing with sites is poeple not submitting to the correct category. If your site has content, is submitted in the correct category and is not a free hosted domain you should be accepted. We are also asking that all titles and descriptions be submitted in English. Our translation engine will translate the listings into whatever language the user wants( well 26 of them). If you have any questions please let me know.

Thank you for your support.
>If you have any questions please let me know.

Thanks for clearing up a few queries Euroseek.

One challenge I have is with the number of categories. I understand it is not possible to have all the categories and sub-categories fixed from day one, but I have sites I wish submit for which there is no applicable category. May I suggest you add a field to the submission form for any additional comments such as suggesting new categories etc.

Also, in how many categories can a site be listed?

It is good to get feedback from Engines and Directories to help us do our job better as this also helps you build a better resource. Thanks again.

Onya
Woz
Euroseek I have a couple of comments or questions for you.

1. Will you be promoting it or do you hope for viral promotion by webmasters etc from places like this?

2. Industrial categories: there are very few categories available, is it possible to add more?

3. Google link pop. Your caregories are served with a ? in the url string, does this not mean that google will not find links and therefore webmasters will get no effect on their google PR from listing in your directory?
Wow your quite fast, submitted 1 hour ago, indexed now.
Hi,

You can now suggest a category. We have added a link in the directory pages on the left side. Go in the directory as far as possible and then suggest the category you would like.

Thank you
I listed a site farther down under regional/North America/United States/... and it was accepted.

United States is gone now from Regional/North America

I can find my site by doing a directory search, and it shows the category. But then when I 'walk back up the links' I get the following message:

Oops!
The category Regional / North_America / United_States doesn't exist, or has been renamed.

??
>You can now suggest a category.

That's great Euroseek, but may I suggest further imrpovements?

1) Add a comments field to the suggest a category form. I would like to suggest categories and also give my reasoning behind the taxonomy.

2) Add the suggest a category field to the submission form along with the comments field so people can submit a site and suggest the new category at the same time.

Onya
Woz
anyone notice the error on the add url page....
(Please limit your title to 50 characters)

then just under the description box...

(Please limit your title to 255 characters. Avoid using HTML tags.)

well i supose these things happen :)
Hi,

We are currently rebuilding part of the database. Some categories may be missing for a day or two. When the categories come back up so will the sites that were in it.

Thanks
I'm glad Euroseek is back up, it was a personal favourite in the past.

Can I suggest that you promote in Central Europe? The Czechs love Google, if they can find a google and directory source such as this, which has such features, then you'll immediately gain them as users.
Euroseek:

Nice work! One question: when adding a site you have a section for adding keywords. I know you are trying to avoid spam but not repeating anything in the title or the description leaves very little for keywords that people can use to search for the site. Will the specific added keywords make all that much difference in surfers being able to find the listing? Or will it be enough to just include them in the description/title?
Yep, game on!

Anyone see anything wrong with submitting a site to 2 catagories if it's appropriate?

What sexy little find!
Nice touch.

I wonder if Euroseek is tracking click-throughs, and if so, what effect this will have on future competitive ranking.

Here's an example link:

http://www.euroseek.com/cgi-bin/new/redirect.cgi?url=http://www.yourwebsite.com/

Euroseek has many a great possibility for the future. I wish them good luck and hope to see their doors open for a long time to come.
Cheers to Euroseek (both the directory/engine and the person posting here) for the quick review and inclusion of submissions and for being kind enough to answer questions and post comments here!
Are they sending rejections to those who don't fit in? I assume it's probably taking more than a few hours now to field the submits.

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